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What's specifically demoscene about "designers clicking together a real-time design thing"?
Haven't we already enough venues for that outside of the demoscene?

What and who have you, and are you still ignoring? What if you had a strong case of "that's just your opinion, man?"

Demos as technical feat shows kinda lost their meaning when the same modern machine could replay recordings that are practically indistinguishable from running the same thing in real-time.

(Sizecoding still mostly works, though, but the point is even harder to get across to the uniniated.)

Having coder-less demos is just a byproduct then, i guess. =)

What is it we're arguing about here, again?

Yeah guys, sure.
Continue changing the narrative what top demos were always about.
I am done with PC demoscene.
Luckily the alternative platforms are still rocking.

Maybe you should make a demo about it instead of throwing your toys around.

Also good code and design do not rule out each other, as some in this conversation futilely try to imply - which is of course hugely offensive to the many, many fine groups of artists and coders who try to combine both - and did so in the past 40 years.

Using a demomaking tool is simply a low-effort shortcut, cutting out half of the demoscene job. The commercial ones should be outright banned from the compos, and the non-commercial ones would greatly benefit the makers and audience in a designer compo (or Wild if not permitted by the number of entries.)

It's just in your head.

When does a scener created ”demotool” become evil?

If Fairlight does a demo with Notch, it’s basically their engine, but if Byterapers uses it, is it instantly lame?

Same goes for Holon and Cables, Still and TiXL, and as a historical example Werkzeug and Farbrausch.

It seems a lot of folk who dis on ”demotools” forget that these tools were made by sceners and put out there for the explicit reason that other sceners could also use them to create stuff.

All simply.

A good prod is always a combination of a collaborative effort where everyone tries to give their best.

it's the friendship we made along the way

i thought the demoscene was about making these things called 'demos'... dunno for sure, but the 'demo' part might give it away. all the above interpretations of what constitutes a demo is highly subjective and i see a pattern where coders like its code, artists like its art... and uncle-x likes both! :P and it's just mainly coders going mimimi because notch took their render() away.

Friendship ended with PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE.

Now DEMOTOOL is my best friend.

no need for friend classes anymore!

Good for you.

The good side of informal movements such as the demoscene is that they continuously morph adjusting to the times, moslty ignoring individual positions. Just do your thing and have fun.

I like my coder, not sure I like all coders…

One thing is for sure: too strong regulation was never successful in the past. There had been always a mix of demos using engines, hard/soft coded. You won't be able to restrict the way demos are created in posting in a thread here. And if you want, just create a demo to show why you care so much.

Not on PC. I'm always against regulation. Of course should hand in stuff in the fitting categories themselves.

My intent is entirely altruistic. Not sure when for the last time I've been able to sit through a PC demo compo at a bigger party. Could be in the 90s. Recently I tend to hang around talking, peeking over someone's shoulder from time to time if there's something interesting going on in PC.
I don't know how much good stuff I missed that way, but the signal to noise ratio has been less than optimal for years. I'm sure as heck glad I didn't miss RomCom and en-tropy, to name just some of the few examples.
Now I can even watch some of those I missed in a browser fluently on my 14 years old computer, which is splendid - although from around 2000 the stuff wasn't all that exciting for me so far (looked very much like the AGA demos with more polys).

How about you take your altruism and make a demoparty about it? To test your hypothesis? That it bothers a significant enough amount of people?

Wait so is the scene now dying because people make too many demos and not all of them are technically groundbreaking?

i guess i dont see much of a line of technical achievement between a demo made in one of the tools referenced in this thread, and a 4k made with an off the shelf example framework, an off the shelf synth (complete with VST/UI and supporting tooling), compressed with an off the shelf compressor, and visually consisting of a shader made in and exported from shadertoy with a bunch of code borrowed from other shadertoy shaders and sdf helper libraries, and compressed with an off the shelf shader minimiser. "wow, 4k, how is this possible??"



apart from a very small number of examples the (pc) scene hasn't produced many actually technically impressive / technically innovative works for years, you could even say decades. we've already changed the technical level from "things that are impressive achievements for the world of computing" to "things that are enjoyable pieces of work for a small hobbyist community". the emperor is already clearly naked. design (or lack thereof) and quality of execution has been the key factor for a long time now. and yet, here we are.

so about time you fire up notch again, smash! ;)

Well said, don't disagree..

(this was directed towards smash, not maali ofcourse)

so you don't want him to fire up notch?