pouët.net

The demoscene in the 2010s

category: general [glöplog]
knos: I, naturally, disagree.
added on the 2010-09-13 19:41:51 by gloom gloom
I agree with Smash, the best demo outreach I've had personally (and possibly evilpaul as well) has been getting friends from the games industry to contribute some artwork or something, always a similar age to ourselves already working with the same tools and experience. And it's usually a one-time thing which is fair enough, because let's face it scene isn't and never was an "important thing." Guys go out skateboarding, paint art, play in bands on the weekend etc. , what's the difference? It's not a career choice, yes some of us learnt our skills during the classic scene days but we didn't see the scene as anything but a stepping stone to what we wanted to do with our lives.

Check the scrollers from the old days. Most coders, within a few demos, were putting "this will probably be our last demo.. tommorow you'll play our games". Some of us came back later because we enjoy it too much to just stop completely. Let it be what it is, who says we need to outreach to a new generation of sceners anyway? If it's meant to be someone will pick up the torch and do so. Stop worrying about it and go code something in the meantime.
added on the 2010-09-13 22:18:36 by 4mat 4mat
4mat: so true.

This endless "debate/outreach/OMG WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG NOWADAYS?" thing is just pointless.

Let people enjoy their own hobbies and let's stop trying to convince them we're so incredibly cool that they should join us because let's face it, we just aren't THAT cool.

What next? Turning into Jehovah's witnesses and knocking at people's doors handing them demoscene pamphlets?

"Stop worrying about it and go code something in the meantime" indeed :)
added on the 2010-09-13 22:32:10 by keops keops
Quote:
What next? Turning into Jehovah's witnesses and knocking at people's doors handing them demoscene pamphlets?


haha, excellent
added on the 2010-09-13 22:34:53 by iq iq
@keops: The chipscene is already doing it! http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/2375/chip-music-pamphlet/
Like iq said, pamphleting is a great idea!
added on the 2010-09-14 13:04:07 by psonice psonice
Send pamphlets to tigsource. Your tower defense game get no recognition? Come make a demo about it!
added on the 2010-09-14 14:49:41 by Claw Claw
tower defense demo!
added on the 2010-09-14 17:59:00 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
I just finished it reading it yesterday. Interesting article (like some of the rest in your site).

I am not sure if assembly after basic is an easy way to go, although I agree with the concept. The problem with C++, Java or other high-level languages is that when a newbie gets into, he writes some lengthy absurd lines that needs deeper understand of the language to make sense. For example in java, even a public static void main(String args) hides a lot of keywords that have a meaning, I was trying to teach it to a student and he learn just writting it. One who just started programming wonders, why not something simple like ProgramStart()?

However, I followed that path in a way. First with basic then almost the same time first z80 assembly and a bit later C and after that C++ and Java. But depends in the person. I know some friends who knew nothing about programming and dived directly into C++ because they said, if I am going to waste my time let's go directly into the state of the art, not learn something that will be obsolete in years. Maybe weird attitude, but those friends got into it, and wrote C++ and MFC apps without understand (I was making a project with one friend and we both didn't understand shit) writting those long lines that make no sense and only years after we understood what is underlying. While other people say, let's learn assembly for fun, it's obsolete but we want to feel like those legends in the 80s. So, the root to which languages first depends on the individual and of course the motivation.
added on the 2010-09-15 10:39:22 by Optimonk Optimonk
About the realtime non-interactive aspect.

We have the feeling that demos were always this non-interactive visual show but in the beginning it was more close to the interactive thing even not entirely it. It's interesting to imagine that demos would be if an entirely different root was taken in the demoscene history.

Think of some of the old demos where you had to press space to see the next part. Many of the parts had an interactive option, there was for example sinus bobs and you could change the curves when enabling a menu. This was more frequent than we think, but even those single parts that didn't happen to have this kind of interactivity still gave the feeling that this is a real-time routine running and not an animation, since it runs endlessly. It really gave that feeling of something that is definitely real-time and could be used in an interactive application.

Now, the concept of trackmo style demos, continuous flow, effects that only are shown for 5 seconds, etc. changed the demoscene as we know it. Now these demos because they run the same way always and resemble artistic videos or mtv stuff or game/movie intros and are running for 5-10 mins and not endlessly didn't gave the real-time impression to someone not knowing much about the demoscene. I think it's funny to look at the old endless screens with hidden parameter menu to change the running effect and think, at the beginning the sceners had just coded an effect and wanted to show off and the best way to show off was to have the routine running endlessly and maybe give to the user some control. Remember some recent demos where they say that some gfx or code was done with hard work only to be shown for 5 secs or not at all because they don't fit the design or the flow.

Don't get me wrong, I love the evolved trackmo style. It's just interesting (and scary :) to think back and see that maybe at that early point, the demoscene could have walked further into the interactive root, because the coders just wanted to show off routines before the continous trackmo style was introduced and changed everything.
added on the 2010-09-15 10:57:59 by Optimonk Optimonk
Quote:
I just finished it reading it yesterday. Interesting article (like some of the rest in your site). I am not sure if assembly after basic is an easy way to go, although I agree with the concept. The problem with C++, Java or other high-level languages is that when a newbie gets into, he writes some lengthy absurd lines that needs deeper understand of the language to make sense.
You should have read this thread as well then, since that point has been mentioned about a gazillion times already.
added on the 2010-09-15 11:16:34 by gloom gloom
His 2nd post was much more interesting. I've been considering doing an iphone demo when i get some free time (assuming iphone still exists then ;) and that will need some interactivity to get onto the app store.

I like some of the old demo 'structures' if that's the right word.. multipart demos with a menu, effects where you can change parameters, ability to skip parts or keep watching a good bit for longer. I'm not interested in doing an oldschool demo though, so it'll be fun trying to mix that with newschool style.

Actually, I reckon 90% of the reason we lost these things is down to sync. You can't really have the user selecting parts, if you have a single tune and want different parts playing with certain parts of the tune. The music forces the scene changes.

Maybe if we want to get back to that, we need interactive music too, where part of the tune can loop then smoothly move to the next section when the user hits a button?
added on the 2010-09-15 11:27:45 by psonice psonice
Quote:
Maybe if we want to get back to that, we need interactive music too, where part of the tune can loop then smoothly move to the next section when the user hits a button?
Would be a fun experiment yeah. A lot of code is required to get it working smoothly though, but if you're game, then musicians are game too, I'm sure :)
added on the 2010-09-15 11:43:24 by gloom gloom
Yes, sorry bout that. I was going to mention it that I am at page 2 while posting this.
added on the 2010-09-15 12:04:09 by Optimonk Optimonk
Another way to reach more people that has a natural interest in technical stuff, would be to contact the guy writing about the history of the amiga on Ars Technica.

He mention on the last page of his lastest amiga article linky to page 4:


Quote:

In the next installment, I'll explore the 'demo scene'—groups of artists, musicians, and coders that stretched the limit of what was possible on the Amiga hardware in the quest to make the ultimate demo. If any of you know people who were part of that scene (which still exists today!) please contact me at: jeremy_reimer@hotmail.com.



Seams like getting some info about the demoscene on Ars Technica would be a nice fit to reach some new demoscene souls. ;)
added on the 2010-09-23 12:09:43 by neptun neptun
As each generation fades, it passes down traditions, techniques, and experience to the next one, whereupon they are modified and improved upon or found to be lacking or obsolete. The cycle repeats itself countless times with new hobbies emerging and old ones passing into obscurity. In order for a hobby to survive, it must adapt.
added on the 2010-09-23 12:40:18 by havamal havamal
Maali: ..as narrated by David Attenborough. :)
added on the 2010-09-23 12:55:26 by gloom gloom
you mean that could be the reason why the vic20 isnt among the most popular platforms for younger sceners? ;)
added on the 2010-09-23 12:55:46 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
BB Image
added on the 2010-09-23 13:04:34 by Gargaj Gargaj
re gargaj: hehe YEAH.

RE demoscene evangelism, I went and talked to a ton of people about it as a pre-PAX East industry meetup, and have done the same at some science fiction conventions and generally whenever I'm surrounded by coders of some kind in the hopes that I'll get some interest. I show lots of people demos.

I'm arranging demoscene meetups in Boston and Montréal, both of oldskool and current sceners and with an eye to getting folks who may be interested to attend.
And I've connected with some folks in the 8bit/chiptune music scene over here as well.

RE: the old ways, the old ways . . .
I'm not sure what the median age at @party was, but it was skewed 20s/30s (more toward the 30s) end, and our biggest category was oldskool demo, with Mac SE, Amiga, Commodore 64 and Commodore PET . . . and we also had an active oldskool music category. (I really ought to get photos up on slengpung). It seems to me that, over here at least, oldskool stuff has a weird cachet.

I will say that the Euroscene seems to have a lower median age and more focus on modern technology than our sort of nascent scene over here, as far as I've seen.
added on the 2010-09-25 02:26:29 by metoikos metoikos
Hmmm, interactive music...manipulating loops...disk....jockey's....we need a more clever name for this...DJ, anyone? ;)
added on the 2010-09-25 09:48:58 by ferris ferris
Sorry, but this thread angers me a bit...I was drawn to the scene because I saw things I thought weren't possible, and from doing old games I liked making stuff like particle explosions far more than interactivity. Yes I'm repeating this the 10^nth time.

My point? This thread is an endless loop. Go make demos.

break;
added on the 2010-09-25 09:50:35 by ferris ferris
Fuck I'm tired.
added on the 2010-09-25 09:51:03 by ferris ferris

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