pouët.net

Francis: we´re both using a computer at the very moment. This is in no way needed for us to discuss - but we do!

People have NOT been forced to buy anything, it´s their own choice! But people WANT more stuff, and other people benefit on this - please tell me how you would stop this mechanism? That is impossible, since all humans WANT more during their life, and in a modern society a lot of this "more" have become materialized - but still materials that actually SATISFY our deeper humans needs (Í´m not talking about food here ;) )

You can not change the humas urge to satisfy their needs - hell, even the demo-sceners, musicians, whatever does it by buying materialistic tools (PC´s, synths etc), to meet their demands for creativity. People buy cars to meet their demands of freedom, Tv´s for the demand of entertainment... you will not be able to change this.

Actually the market force also have spawned a lot of evolution that has helped the human race in a lot of ways, as well as it has destroyed it - you ALSO know this - that the market force alone is leading to a polluted world is a very cheap statement.

you are still not getting what im talking about. Now go back and read it over as many times as you need. You are not at all addressing the issue.

That the marked forces has spawned evolution is a myth. even more creation would have been possible with a sane money system, and the volume of money would grow with the volume of production, not the other way around.

and we are still only on the microcosmic scale, the individual country. The implications of fractional reserve internationally is staggering to say the least.

Maybe I put it the wrong way. When I said "theoretical" I meant it was out of context for HeXeN's original statement. His need for money in the society he lives in will not diminish. No matter how important your issues are, fact is that you've hi-jacked this thread :)

I agree very much with Puryx' statement:
No matter which system you're using, there will always be a market with market rules, even if you try to control it.

I don't borrow money either, because I'm not a risk-taker.
But even with the strategy "You do my sink, i do your lawn." I guess you can't handle the biggest posts that way (Income: Your daily job. Do you have one? Expenses: Living and food)
And even if you do that with trade/favour (I'll fix do you lawn, you'll cook me food/let me live her) all you do is outsourcing the money handling to someone else.

yeah, well true that. is it interresting enough to continue with at all?

otherwise back on track, sorry HeX.

Iblis: and you still don´t get that, that is NOT what the majority of people actually want...

If some could control it, it would be really really great - in theory. But people want freedom - freedom do decide just what the hell they want to use their resouces (money) on - and that fact is not changeable - all systems trying to adapt to the favour-/equality-idea have "failed", both in terms of evolution, but also in terms of how the people under this system actually feels like.

yeah ok - let´s stop it here, since we went offtopic - alot :)

I also have to cook some food now, since nobody does me that favour :D (sorry, couldn´t resist... )

what is it they dont want? you are answering in east, my question was in the west. What youre saying has nothing to do, with the issue im addressing, have you even read anything before you posted?

aha...you want freedom, so why dont you have any freedom to chose money?(chosing plastic is not the same) why do you have to stick with what you adress as a comodity from one single bank? thats not very freemarked is it?

What I am trying to tell you is that the majority of people don´t want a controlled system - they want what they can get during their short lives - go ask the majority!

Thus a system that would limit the individuals in a way you´re suggesting would lead to some people having a less quality of life, since they can not expand and follow (their maybe inimaginale) goals/dreams.

Others would revolt, and others again would turn grey and just "follow the rules" - that´s what I meant when writing:

Sometimes I only wrote one post while you wrote 2-3 - I´m not updating the thread while writing!

In your system - what would the government to if the majority of the population demanded something specific, and the people that could satisfy that particular demand resfused so, because they wanted more benefits?

to=do

Oh, and just for the record, I´m NOT saying that the current system is unfailable, but that is not due to the system, but due to humans - and humans will not be able to change in their deep nature of wanting more.

I wrote that a couple of posts ago.

uh uh i know the solution, lets make a system ran by machines!!! ;D

ps: hehe :D - "yeah, that would be awesome!"... ;)

this shows that youre still not getting what im talking about. ALL these benefits are avaible with a sane money system that does not PLUNDER our value away from us. Value that could have been used for schools, real social security, pensions etc. People, you included, have forgot what money is, or rather, what they are for. And its new definition is by any definition dishonest to the bone. I dont like being flat out robbed of real value, so my question to you is.

Why do you like being robbed?

Created a new thread for this: http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=4895

that kinda sounded awkward :)

and prisons, armies, weapons..

Ok. For months I don't feel like having time (or motivation) reading big Pouet discussions. I know read this. The first issue is interesting or funny. As for the second it's funny how people changed the discussion.

Hexen said that life is about money. "Life is about" sounds to me something like "I am living for", "The meaning/motivation of my life is". So it can't be money. Of course money is essential today to survive or at least enjoy a quality life as Nitro said, but you don't use the sentence "life is about money" to point this. This means a different thing.

And when they ask me why doing demos without getting payed it sounds a bit funny to me. Because I can't actually answer, I have found out that there is no sense in what we do, it does not have to be usefull because demo is art and art completes itself without a need for external use. We might use our skills for a job, but inside the demoscene we enjoy creating shit for no apparent reason or real life reasons. I speak more about this feeling in a small article here and when I think about that I am more happy and motivated by the idea that at least in the demoscene I am working on stuff just because..

Hexen said that life is about money. "Life is about" sounds to me something like "I am living for", "The meaning/motivation of my life is". So it can't be
it has to be me motivation. i've never had alot of money my whole life and i've felt like i was screwed enough. i don't particularly enjoy feeling worthless because i don't have that so called "paper" and it's not that i care about it. people will shove the fact that you have no money right down your throat.

now, what i think i was discussing. which i'm unsure now. because, there are 4 pages with half the stuff not relating to what i was trying to say in the first place. but, i think i was trying to say is this.

there are alot of skilled people in this place. but there are so many people with skills here this is more like a place of opportunity for everyone involved and everyone does it for fun. i enjoyed programming for fun when i was younger and my dad and everyone acted like i'm just wasting my time. because i had no money.

unless you have money apparently everyone thinks you're a worthless piece of shit. everyone wants money even your girlfriends and i mean i've enjoyed this site for a few years now and i love how everything is free. but, i wonder why so many people with 10x the skill than i believe i'll ever have would do things for free. but, also i was just looking for a simple explanation as well. i don't even know where this whole thing about Fractional reserve banking even came into this. that's all i've got. but, i do enjoy all the posts to this. it's a good read.

whoops. ;x

money has to be me motivation. i've never had alot of money my whole life and i've felt like i was screwed enough. i don't particularly enjoy feeling worthless because i don't have that so called "paper" and it's not that i care about it. people will shove the fact that you have no money right down your throat.

now, what i think i was discussing. which i'm unsure now. because, there are 4 pages with half the stuff not relating to what i was trying to say in the first place. but, i think i was trying to say is this.

there are alot of skilled people in this place. but there are so many people with skills here this is more like a place of opportunity for everyone involved and everyone does it for fun. i enjoyed programming for fun when i was younger and my dad and everyone acted like i'm just wasting my time. because i had no money.

unless you have money apparently everyone thinks you're a worthless piece of shit. everyone wants money even your girlfriends and i mean i've enjoyed this site for a few years now and i love how everything is free. but, i wonder why so many people with 10x the skill than i believe i'll ever have would do things for free. but, also i was just looking for a simple explanation as well. i don't even know where this whole thing about Fractional reserve banking even came into this. that's all i've got. but, i do enjoy all the posts to this. it's a good read.

shit as one group you probably have a hell of a game company lol ;x.

If you see yourself as someone who's got skills in math and programming, and you have particular respect for art or community, then being involved in demoscene productions provides a way to explore your abilities while also being involved in the things that you respect in other people.

Money isn't very good at scratching that kind of itch, but it is good at providing the food and housing which are prerequisites for doing just about anything.. and to at the very least be headed in a direction where you might be able to make some is a major concern in finding and keeping a girl. Maslow's pyramid of needs works to some extent at first because it's founded on some practical constraints. It's usually terribly abused and misinterpreted though because it doesn't do a good job of emphasizing that as the needs at the bottom are fulfilled, expectations and responsibilities tend to grow.. and so it tends to be the young ones with very little who do the greatest things associated with self-actualization (which may be a level inherited from parents), even if it isn't at all satisfying.

Well.. I shouldn't say "with very little". It helps to have food, shelter, and security. However, I personally believe that people do some of the greatest things associated with self-actualization when they are still lacking sex, sleep, employment, clear morality, ensured health, intimacy, achievement, and respect. As those things are fulfilled, immediate responsibilities are rising.

HeXeN:
Your thoughts are basically correct. There have been at least several cases where demosceners have come together in making a game company, and countless cases where sceners have gone on to jobs in game companies and other companies in relative obscurity. It *is* happening. Some companies formed by sceners have failed, and others are doing alright. Does anyone have links?

Before the jobs though, people need to gain some skills. The demoscene is a good motivator and provides a way for people to work on real cooperative projects and share experience. You could argue that a lot of demosceners are working toward furthering their careers as they work on their productions. It might not be what makes it the most interesting, but that kind of benefit is sometimes a consideration that makes a path an option at all.

hexen: we do other stuff besides demos, intros and online bullshit you know. ;)