The scene's opinion of GNU/Linux
category: code [glöplog]
Hey guys,
Back of the day, I recall a group of two porting its productions over to BeOS as advocacy for the operating system as well as to demonstrate the superiority of the operating system over Windows. I imagine that many of today's demo groups are advocates or fans of GNU/Linux as well. Is it common for demo groups to produce anything which runs under the free operating system?
Back of the day, I recall a group of two porting its productions over to BeOS as advocacy for the operating system as well as to demonstrate the superiority of the operating system over Windows. I imagine that many of today's demo groups are advocates or fans of GNU/Linux as well. Is it common for demo groups to produce anything which runs under the free operating system?
Hey look, a troll!
Short answer: No, not common.
Long answer: There are several reasons why not, but mostly 1) platform populace / usage 2) appreciation of art on said platforms and 3) platform ease of use.
Long answer: There are several reasons why not, but mostly 1) platform populace / usage 2) appreciation of art on said platforms and 3) platform ease of use.
The scene has pretty much followed the mainstream OS/platform. Is all.
Quote:
Hey look, a troll!
no! that's a legitime question!
...otherwise i 2nd Gargaj & Marq...
AMIIIIIGAAAAAAH!
so yeah... linux isnt superior enough.
Some of us (me included) are using Linux as main OS and are making demos for others platforms on it :)
So, I'm coding C64 intro using VIM as editor, 64tass as cross-compiler + exomizer as cruncher and running the generated prg with VICE emulator :)
Also I used WINE to make all the latest Razor 1911 win32 prods :D
So, I'm coding C64 intro using VIM as editor, 64tass as cross-compiler + exomizer as cruncher and running the generated prg with VICE emulator :)
Also I used WINE to make all the latest Razor 1911 win32 prods :D
Personally, I use Linux almost exclusively, but I can certainly understand why Windows is the preferred platform of many:
Pros:
- more stable library ABIs (APIs change on both worlds)
- thus easier to make size-restricted stuff such as 4k/64k intros that usually work from OS version to other
- some tools related to size-restricted stuff (Crinkler) available on Windows
- some advantages in the "I just want to open a window and draw stuff in it", under Linux you almost certainly need some 3rd party lib (SDL, glfw) unless you want to lose your sanity. SDL is pretty standard nowadays, but some people might start bikeshedding/arguing about 4ks/64ks depending on whatnot 3rd party libs.
- OpenGL vs DirectX .. maybe not an issue in some ways, but possibly in others. creating a context can be pain without 3rd party lib again.
- the rather sad state of GL support in Linux (Mesa does not yet support recent OpenGL versions), so either you target only proprietary NVidia drivers or just forget about it practically :P
Cons:
- it's Windows
Just my personal view, and this from a guy who can't stand using Windows as a desktop OS :D
Pros:
- more stable library ABIs (APIs change on both worlds)
- thus easier to make size-restricted stuff such as 4k/64k intros that usually work from OS version to other
- some tools related to size-restricted stuff (Crinkler) available on Windows
- some advantages in the "I just want to open a window and draw stuff in it", under Linux you almost certainly need some 3rd party lib (SDL, glfw) unless you want to lose your sanity. SDL is pretty standard nowadays, but some people might start bikeshedding/arguing about 4ks/64ks depending on whatnot 3rd party libs.
- OpenGL vs DirectX .. maybe not an issue in some ways, but possibly in others. creating a context can be pain without 3rd party lib again.
- the rather sad state of GL support in Linux (Mesa does not yet support recent OpenGL versions), so either you target only proprietary NVidia drivers or just forget about it practically :P
Cons:
- it's Windows
Just my personal view, and this from a guy who can't stand using Windows as a desktop OS :D
Quote:
Long answer: There are several reasons why not, but mostly 1) platform populace / usage 2) appreciation of art on said platforms and 3) platform ease of use.
Translation: "I don't like Linux".
Quote:
Personally, I use Linux almost exclusively, but I can certainly understand why Windows is the preferred platform of many:
Pros:
- more stable library ABIs (APIs change on both worlds)
- thus easier to make size-restricted stuff such as 4k/64k intros that usually work from OS version to other
- some tools related to size-restricted stuff (Crinkler) available on Windows
- some advantages in the "I just want to open a window and draw stuff in it", under Linux you almost certainly need some 3rd party lib (SDL, glfw) unless you want to lose your sanity. SDL is pretty standard nowadays, but some people might start bikeshedding/arguing about 4ks/64ks depending on whatnot 3rd party libs.
- OpenGL vs DirectX .. maybe not an issue in some ways, but possibly in others. creating a context can be pain without 3rd party lib again.
- the rather sad state of GL support in Linux (Mesa does not yet support recent OpenGL versions), so either you target only proprietary NVidia drivers or just forget about it practically :P
Cons:
- it's Windows
Just my personal view, and this from a guy who can't stand using Windows as a desktop OS :D
I don't like Windows.
Make that translation: "I don't like Windows".
Also, what Marq said.
Also: Yawn. Really =)
Also, what Marq said.
Also: Yawn. Really =)
Its ok as a server, though.. no much usage for other things referencing to gargaj's post..
Quote:
I recall a group of two porting its productions over to BeOS as advocacy for the operating system as well as to demonstrate the superiority of the operating system over Windows.
I think the existing *nix demos easily prove the superiority of an operating system, certainly.
TBH, *nix advocates always butting into discussions like this with comments like "I don't like Windows" does nothing to raise the acceptance of these platform(s) among Windows users. No-one cares if you don't like an OS - then you use something else. If you want dissonance, this is how you get it.
SDL/glfw or at the very least, SDL are nowadays accepted as de-facto ways to do this for size-restricted productions. At least we've never gotten any complaints.
Otherwise, what Marq said.
Quote:
ccr:
some advantages in the "I just want to open a window and draw stuff in it", under Linux you almost certainly need some 3rd party lib (SDL, glfw) unless you want to lose your sanity. SDL is pretty standard nowadays, but some people might start bikeshedding/arguing about 4ks/64ks depending on whatnot 3rd party libs.
SDL/glfw or at the very least, SDL are nowadays accepted as de-facto ways to do this for size-restricted productions. At least we've never gotten any complaints.
Otherwise, what Marq said.
No matter if it runs in Windows, Linux or DOS, demo would look the same good if it's the same effort to make something cool, would not prove superiority of given OS. Come to gp2x, dingoo, gcw zero and other openhandhelds with linux OS for demomaking (although most people are interested in emulation).
Also, why problem make when you no problem have you don't want to make?
Also, why problem make when you no problem have you don't want to make?
Windows and Linux are both turing complete platforms, this implies that neither one is more powerful than the other. qed.
+1
Quote:
Hey look, a troll!
+1
This topic is so very interesting and insightful and valuable and not a troll. I hope the thread runs for a long time.
If you try running older (especially closed source) Linux productions, you'll soon realize that you'll be in a world of pain when trying to scavenge the libraries that are linked but not included in the binary distribution. It's sucking slowly the life out of you when it takes more time to get the production running than the production's actual play time.
If cross compiling production to multiple systems is an easy thing to do with the demo making platform X then why not release it in less used desktop operation systems as well. Otherwise than that targeting productions to the most popular operating systems is much more fun since more people can see the actual production.
...anyway since due to raising popularity browser WebGL stuff, soon there's less need to talk about OS compatibilities and ports :-)
If cross compiling production to multiple systems is an easy thing to do with the demo making platform X then why not release it in less used desktop operation systems as well. Otherwise than that targeting productions to the most popular operating systems is much more fun since more people can see the actual production.
...anyway since due to raising popularity browser WebGL stuff, soon there's less need to talk about OS compatibilities and ports :-)
waffle: Meh, WebGL is a legacy platform, with random support for even ancient GPU features. But yeah, binary compatibility in the GNU userland is a joke, the only real alternative is to release source and have people compile it themselves (or if you're lucky, trick someone into bothering to maintain distro-packages). And releasing source has traditionally been very far from the scene-spirit.
So yeah, let's just say 2014 isn't going to be the year of demos on Linux.
So yeah, let's just say 2014 isn't going to be the year of demos on Linux.
The problem is that desktop GNU/Linux is barely a suitable platform because it lacks binary compatibility. Too many distros and too many configurations (even for different processors) and, of course, a hell of libraries that are not the same among all "popular" distros and can change in the next update.
Has anyone tried to execute a linux demo from 2004 in 2014?
Has anyone tried to execute a linux demo from 2004 in 2014?
speaking of trying to run linux demos from 2004 in 2014. someone should fix the variform port! iirc, it had a resolution selector thus making it superior to the windows version! ;)
Linux has been (and is) a pain in the ass from the view of a compo organizer.
Even if there are the required libs available on the system, you often have to introduce symlinks and other dirty hacks to make it work (e.g. the guys who did the intro linked it to a certain version of a lib under a certain distribution and you have a more current version of that lib on a different distribution, which is hopefully compatible).
Under windows you have a total DLL hell but it's still more painless most of the time.
Instead of writing a linux port, even writing code that runs with Wine seems more reliable regarding long term compatibility (as long you use OpenGL, iirc DX9 stuff also worked to a certain level).
+1 what kusma said.
Even if there are the required libs available on the system, you often have to introduce symlinks and other dirty hacks to make it work (e.g. the guys who did the intro linked it to a certain version of a lib under a certain distribution and you have a more current version of that lib on a different distribution, which is hopefully compatible).
Under windows you have a total DLL hell but it's still more painless most of the time.
Instead of writing a linux port, even writing code that runs with Wine seems more reliable regarding long term compatibility (as long you use OpenGL, iirc DX9 stuff also worked to a certain level).
+1 what kusma said.
My 2 cents:
I pick what's beneficial for the product I'm making. Is it a PC demo? Windows, no doubt. Is it anything server/network related: Linux is what I prefer (*). Developing for alternative platforms is something I like to do on OSX: nice GUI, nice tools but close enough compatible with just about anything that affords you the opportunity to evade abortions like MingW.
(*) - And yes, Linux tends to be a dependency hell compared to Windows and it's DLL system when it comes to distributing ready-made and compiled software. This probably has a thing or two to do with the fact that the whole Linux philosophy is to share on source level to begin with. Which can be either a charm or the equivalent of having a burning car tire stuffed up your rectum.
I pick what's beneficial for the product I'm making. Is it a PC demo? Windows, no doubt. Is it anything server/network related: Linux is what I prefer (*). Developing for alternative platforms is something I like to do on OSX: nice GUI, nice tools but close enough compatible with just about anything that affords you the opportunity to evade abortions like MingW.
(*) - And yes, Linux tends to be a dependency hell compared to Windows and it's DLL system when it comes to distributing ready-made and compiled software. This probably has a thing or two to do with the fact that the whole Linux philosophy is to share on source level to begin with. Which can be either a charm or the equivalent of having a burning car tire stuffed up your rectum.
plek: Indeed. But since the FSF is insisting so much on naming the system "GNU/Linux", I think it's only fair to point out this: it's the GNU-part of the system that does not care at all about binary compatibility and break applications all the time. The Linux syscalls has historically been impressively stable.