pouët.net

Use of UE et cetera

category: general [glöplog]
Quote:
I think Fairlight has all the rights to make demos with Notch.


Of course. But do you fully realize what it is? It's a company, it pays people's bills. It's not a piece of hobby code someone just decided to sell as-is. At least not anymore.

And you said it yourself, you do whatever the fuck you feel is fun i.e. worth your time. Others do too, in various ways. Let them.

And again: are we really going to stumble and fall over a formality? Shall I go scan 100 90s MS-DOS demo executables to perhaps spot a library the failed to mention in the infofile? It's of that magnitude really.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:26:18 by superplek superplek
Musicians use music-tools.
Graphicians use graphic-tools.
Why shouldn't Coders use coder-/demo-tools?
added on the 2018-08-05 20:28:06 by gaspode gaspode
True. It isn't a fun-for-all project anymore if peopls livelihood depend on it.

Quote:
And again: are we really going to stumble and fall over a formality? Shall I go scan 100 90s MS-DOS demo executables to perhaps spot a library the failed to mention in the infofile? It's of that magnitude really.
Please don't! You'll find out all the scripts, tricks and tutorials I used without giving credit :)
added on the 2018-08-05 20:31:22 by numtek numtek
I've said this in other places but I'll say it again:

I don't care what anybody uses, I just want more demos using great ideas, be they tech, art content or narrative.

Just be transparent about the tech, share code as much as possible and seek to increase knowledge instead of building walls while being open to alternative approaches. There's no right or wrong way of making demos what comes to using an engine. Tech brings no talent and compo wins are not a measure of production quality and long time enjoyment.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:33:27 by visy visy
Quote:
Musicians use music-tools.
Graphicians use graphic-tools.
Why shouldn't Coders use coder-/demo-tools?


I really don't think that's the same thing. The coders "tools" are the editor and compiler etc. in the same way the the musicians uses the tracker or the graphics guy uses Deluxepaint (or Photoshop or whatever the kids use these days).
Using an engine/library is replacing some of what you'd have to do if you started from scratch with something that someone else has already prepared.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:35:00 by Sdw Sdw
Eh, and to add, to me there is a difference between an engine and a library.
OpenGL is a 3D library. UE is a 3D engine.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:37:02 by Sdw Sdw
The net result as it stands is that there's a ton of coders whose demos could use a designer, while designers just use whatever commercial tool available instead, and somewhere there's a collective sigh echoing through a forest.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:37:22 by Gargaj Gargaj
Sdw: yeah you are right, a demo should run from an usb key using its own OS.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:39:03 by skarab skarab
Quote:

yet go ga-ga when someone implements yet another SIGGRAPH paper and stick it in a 4k or 64k.


Lol. Are you referring to people that actually wrote that Siggraph papers ?
Like this 64k, which is actually based on two papers that they wrote themselves.
Or this 64k, written by this guy, who has written dozen of graphics papers (including Siggraph).

Also, tbh Siggraph papers are usually more useful for big-sized prods. Especially big demos with lots of fluid simulations in them, you know... just saying.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:42:38 by tomkh tomkh
Quote:
I really don't think that's the same thing. The coders "tools" are the editor and compiler etc.
Exactly this. It is the same issue with Boris Vallejo all over again.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:44:40 by numtek numtek
Quote:
The net result as it stands is that there's a ton of coders whose demos could use a designer, while designers just use whatever commercial tool available instead, and somewhere there's a collective sigh echoing through a forest.


That's a thing of beauty you just said there.
added on the 2018-08-05 21:06:36 by superplek superplek
Quote:
Lol. Are you referring to people that actually wrote that Siggraph papers ?
Like this 64k, which is actually based on two papers that they wrote themselves.
Or this 64k, written by this guy, who has written dozen of graphics papers (including Siggraph).

Congratulations — you've cherry-picked two examples, good for you. No, I'm talking about the hundreds of SIGGRAPH papers published every year, that demoscene coders have looked to for decades. This really is the scene's worst kept secret you know..
added on the 2018-08-05 21:08:14 by gloom gloom
Quote:
The net result as it stands is that there's a ton of coders whose demos could use a designer, while designers just use whatever commercial tool available instead, and somewhere there's a collective sigh echoing through a forest.

Poetry.
added on the 2018-08-05 21:08:55 by gloom gloom
About only using own engines:
Does this mean that this demo is true and good and this demo isn't, because it was made with Notch (which was not coded by Cocoon, so it isn't their own engine)?
added on the 2018-08-05 21:11:18 by gaspode gaspode
Quote:
Quote:
Lol. Are you referring to people that actually wrote that Siggraph papers ?
Like this 64k, which is actually based on two papers that they wrote themselves.
Or this 64k, written by this guy, who has written dozen of graphics papers (including Siggraph).

Congratulations — you've cherry-picked two examples, good for you. No, I'm talking about the hundreds of SIGGRAPH papers published every year, that demoscene coders have looked to for decades. This really is the scene's worst kept secret you know..


BB Image

Oh jesus... let me put this stuff in the back of a kitchen drawer and stash all the others belor the floorboards, encrypt a bunch of PDFs and for gods sake sanitize my browser's bookmark collection.

*phew*, now I can safely claim that I can tie my own shoelaces!
added on the 2018-08-05 21:13:21 by superplek superplek
Quote:
About only using own engines:
Does this mean that this demo is true and good and this demo isn't, because it was made with Notch (which was not coded by Cocoon, so it isn't their own engine)?
Well it evens says 'block one by Fairlight & cocoon' in the title so I think they are in the green zone for now. I'm still keeping my eye out for Cocoon, I do have the inkling I've seen some of those models in some other demos!
added on the 2018-08-05 21:30:33 by numtek numtek
gloom: I feel like you know all this, but yeah, let's state the obvious - many coders on a demoscene contribute to academia, work in gamedev industry, etc... and they actually "invented" (more like discovered, and often times rediscovered) their own rendering techniques.

Also hmm... maybe you don't know as you are focusing on making music (I guess?), but "implementing a scientific paper" requires sometimes as much work as the actual author of the paper did (especially if you have tighter performance/size constraints).
added on the 2018-08-05 21:39:07 by tomkh tomkh
Quote:
writing yet another object loader is an utter waste of time

writing yet another hello world is just an utter waste of time, everybody should just stop writing things that were written before and just use what's already available!!11

Wait... how exactly do you as an individual improve your skills then, grasp new concepts and realize why certain decisions were made? Also how does that "opinion pyramide" matter here, first off everybody in this discussion is a releaser so far + also this is clearly about the subjective opinion of what's "keeping it real" and what's not, there is no definitive answer so everybodys opinion is worth the same amount.

I'm pretty annoyed by this "everything's a remix just rip whatever you like as long as you recombine it like a collage its fine" culture that some people seem to like so much and start applying it to code. Btw. the raymarched water in the ASD demo, looks a lot like the water shader that can be seen on glsl-sandbox since 2014, not to mention that raymarching the water seems like a pretty weird decision from a technical point of view, there are way better performing triangle based approaches out there but I guess it was easier just taking the shader code, setting up a shared z-buffer and then be like "we took random code from glsl-sandbox thanks!" without actually even trying to credit the sources.

So yeah I'm actually with Sdw, numtek. Everybody can use whatever they want but I'll apply my criteria to it, one of which is how much of the code was developed by the authors.
added on the 2018-08-05 21:42:29 by LJ LJ
I think quality over quantity applies also to pure opinion. I know a lot of sceners that are active on parties but don't say anything on Pouet, or say it on a platform forum, or register only for credits to be applicable, or haven't registered here. Their voices will not be heard in any of the discussions.

1. I think all sceners have one thing in common, though: We care about credits.

In business, you sign over the rights to your work for the company to do anything they want with, and usually those who designed the product are not credited. But I think almost everyone in the Demoscene think credits are vital. That's why we have handles. To make a name for ourselves, and get the appreciation of our peers, and greet our peers.

2. Every scener should release anything they had fun making. Or was a chore making.

For me, 1+2 equals the simple act of putting Demoengine by Unity instead of Demoengine by <handle> of <group> in the demo.

End of thread? :D
added on the 2018-08-05 21:45:58 by Photon Photon
I'm all for cool technical stuff but doing an asset loader is a trivial exercise in futility. You lose (potentially a lot of) time and gain zero new knowledge doing it.
added on the 2018-08-05 21:47:12 by msqrt msqrt
yeah, always credit as much as possible, putting an unreal engine entry against other entries that use self written engines without stating its using unreal engine sucks.
added on the 2018-08-05 21:49:32 by LJ LJ
Quote:
writing yet another object loader is an utter waste of time


Well, no. Writing essential/basic things is often a really good way to learn about the concepts of what you're working with. Of course you can't possibly know or do everything, so pick your battles. I've got a feeling though that when I started for example (1993-1994), the battles picked you. There's so much more of everything today.

As for giving credit where due: of course. Duh. But there's a reasonable cutoff somewhere - that's where things cross into the territory also known as common knowledge.
added on the 2018-08-05 21:57:45 by superplek superplek
superplek: I have one of those book in my shelves, can you guess which one?
added on the 2018-08-05 21:59:10 by rudi rudi
Quote:
Well it evens says 'block one by Fairlight & cocoon' in the title so I think they are in the green zone for now. I'm still keeping my eye out for Cocoon, I do have the inkling I've seen some of those models in some other demos!

So ok I guess this one isn't isn't good and valid anymore then. Strange.

Quote:
I'm all for cool technical stuff but doing an asset loader is a trivial exercise in futility. You lose (potentially a lot of) time and gain zero new knowledge doing it.

This.

Also though maybe stop belittling the effort needed to implement a graphics algorithm, especially in limited space. That probably wasn't the intention (at least I wanna think so) but words don't always come off the way you intend.
added on the 2018-08-05 22:00:33 by noby noby
Quote:
I'm all for cool technical stuff but doing an asset loader is a trivial exercise in futility. You lose (potentially a lot of) time and gain zero new knowledge doing it.

Mmm. I'll still finish my softsynth that I started in Python. One day I'll make a C-version and build my own 4k. [url=http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=57449]Completly futile [/url ]since I'll never get close to Virgill or Gopher. Still enjoyable though! Why? Because I can :)
added on the 2018-08-05 22:01:58 by numtek numtek

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