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It seems to be a common misconception that because AI code generation enables us to skip thinking about specific problems, it makes us stop thinking altogether. It doesn't. It makes us think differently.

I've seen it happening in my own brain. Having these tools in my hands and thinking about how to use them changes my mode of thought. This in turn leads to different ideas than I would otherwise have had.

I want to see where this changed mode of thought takes us collectively.

Learning sophisticated low-level code or advanced vector math (depending on your platform of choice) is currently a barrier to entry for the realtime Demoscene. You have to overcome that barrier to move on to the next level of making something interesting with it. There are many people out there who don't have the inclination (or the "skill", as some of you call it) for these activities, or who simply want to spend their time on something else. AI code generation gives such people access to code as a medium of expression.

People are bound to look at a medium through the lens of their own experiences. As a seasoned democoder, I can only relate to AI-generated code in terms of the code I would have written myself. This constrains me in my thinking. Vibe coders without that baggage will look at the code differently and thus will get different ideas.

I want to see those ideas too. I want to see what this impulse does to creativity in the Demoscene. Please don't block it.

As a shitty excuse for a “coder” I am, I can say that I couldn’t agree with you less. Nobody will block anything imho because it seems impossible. Soon we’ll all enjoy all those super creative prods.

It can assist though if you only ask it essential things and then make up your mind and write the code yourself. But the way it's promoted and most people are adopting it is "It will make you 10x, 100x more productive", "Coding is solved/dead/not needed anymore", etc.

I also see some adopters or tech-influencers mocking others creative people like "Yeah, do your coding the traditional ways, we will win over you, you will become obsolete haha!". I don't like the general vibes of this (no pun intended :). But I have faith that those who continue not relying too heavily in it will maintain their skills and will be needed to clean the slop from code production.

> There are many people out there who don't have the inclination

Yeah that's always fascinating to me. If you interact with engineers only you don't see it, but I'm always shocked how little a lay person can be inclined towards math. Arithmetic is ok for most, but if you rise even a simple problem that requires primary school level of algebra or calculus and they immediately run away. I think it's some kind of cognitive dissonance (fear they developed towards it in school).

People are so silly if you think about it. Let's embrace our AI overlords!

> Inclination
I guess it's possible it could help to bootstrap someone who hasn't broken the ice but always afraid, to get started a bit as long as he doesn't end up relying too much on it, but I am afraid he eventually will get depended :)

That's not a barrier, that's the scene itself.

So maybe they should find something else then?

It's a bit like saying if you can't add two 3 digit numbers in your head fast, you are not qualified to work as a cashier in grocery store.

Being a cashier in a grocery store is a very popular folk-art hobby where you live?

It gives them access to prompting as a medium of expression.

Or use demotools like Tooll3/TiXL etc.

I think it's about time to make AI-enabled demotool

The big difference between using AI and using a tool that a member of the demoscene made is that in the latter case there is a cool person you can admire, hang out with, and learn from.

Blueberry, I think somebody like you who has serious engineering chops is probably able to use these tools with discipline, to use them to generate boilerplate busywork, handle function call completion, or potentially generate novel-to-you code that you'll then audit, verify, and learn from if you don't entirely understand what's going on.

But I doubt the vast majority of people interested in making a demo have that discipline, and they will not learn from their prompt outputs and will simply clog compos with averaged prods.

Research is pretty worrying.

just popping into the conversation here. My friend's husband codes with AI and now she can't understand why I don't code with AI.

I have colleagues who are coding with LLMs. I have not noticed any difference in productivity between them and the rest of us — which I think is unsurprising, since LLMs don't help with the part of programming that takes the bulk of the time involved, which is the "fully understanding the problem you are trying to solve" part. It might just be due to my ADD, but personally I like writing the kind of code that LLMs are good at generating, because I feel it hones my mind and helps me focus on the code at large.

Letting the LLM do even the non-innovative coding (in context of the scene) is like using an LLM to play SUDOKU for you. Where's the fun in that?

Jos luoja suo, niin koodataan, en enää muuta elämältä haluaisikaan

Hello everyone, I’m new here (although I’ve already been running a YouTube channel with demos for some time).

Let me say a few words about myself. I first encountered the C64 when I was about 10 or 11 years old. Cassettes and floppy disks were loaded manually. I’ll never forget how nearly every game had an intro. Later, I came across the Amiga, on our local TV. I was amazed by its graphical capabilities. Then, at 16, I got my first PC, and once again was blown away when I saw 32-bit graphics and the first 3dfx games.

I’m especially fond of the C64 and Amiga era, because that’s when demos were really fascinating. Every image literally looked like it was drawn by an artist. Especially the game Shadow of the Beast… I’m sure you know what I mean.

I can imagine how, after all this, artificial intelligence suddenly appeared and changed everything at once.

I believe the fairest approach would be to have a separate category for AI works, or at least a checkbox indicating that a demo contains AI, similar to how DeviantArt handles it.

Those who want to prove their authenticity could always record a YouTube video showing their artwork being created in real-time. I believe that even with AI, coexistence is possible. Parties could also introduce an AI category.

Those who are honest and conscientious will adhere to this.

Best regards to all of you.

Spoiler: Organizers sometimes filter the sort of things they want in their party based on the rules and categories offered. If an organizer simply doesn't want to deal with genAI prods, it's their prerogative to simply ban them outright. If somebody really wants a genAI or genAI-allowed compo, they are more than welcome to organize such a compo / party themselves. If it goes well, there's a chance some previously skeptical parties would adopt such a compo.

All good points, but we are talking about AI assistance to write code over here, which is impossible to inspect, especially if someone is using it merely to figure out the right API calls.



Again, off-topic.

Why do we even care about AI/no AI prods? (that's a real question, not a rhetorical one)

Our entire subculture substrate is not ethically sourced -- hardware, OS, drivers, other software, you name it, are made by big corporations that just don't care. The last m̵i̵l̵e̵ centimeter has barely any impact.

And getting too many slop AI prods is also not guaranteed. It's not that our field is very appealing to outside audience so that it would make sense to spend any effort to participate without innate interest in the practice itself. And in case there is too much slop, there's always preselection to weed it out (although that can pose a challenge for party orgas/judges).

Ultimately, whether AI was or wasn't used remains trust based. Physically, AI-made prods can be entered without being tagged as one, and without looking too much like slop.

The same goes for copyright issues. There's no way to be 100% sure that an arbitrary entry is fully copyright-clean.

Sorry if I missed the point of the discussion.

I don’t believe AI can successfully write a complete codebase, but it can generate parts of the code. I’ve tried AI several times myself, and it was able to create a simple game like Tetris. And I know it’s hard to prove.

100% agree here. This whole "ethical consumerism" is really a 2020s thing. And in fact there are just few people on the demoscene, unfortunately influential ones, that try to enforce those views on everyone else, while I'm sure majority doesn't give a shit.

At the same time, there is huge disconnect from reality in all of it, as you say, provod. For example, you surely know that running a demo on your local machine on a beefy GPU generates much more CO2 than just playing it from video, right?

Just like we have cared that the person credited in a demo has actually written the code himself (and not for instance his mother).



And this should imply that therefore nothing in this subculture actually matters?