AI tooling in the Demoscene
category: residue [glöplog]
If they make something really cool using AI, all power to them IMHO
So far i have only seen boring, mostly mediocre at best, though
So far i have only seen boring, mostly mediocre at best, though
> i totally get that it's tempting to get rid of a tedious task that just seems annoying and "has to be done".
I agree that there is such a thing as being too lazy, and I think that is actually a large underlying part of the discussion. We're interested in human effort and the change that brings in humans. That's part of the art.
However... I don't really think your argument makes sense, because it can be applied just as well to Unreal Engine, Crinkler and any tools you use to paint. They are all just tools we use because they save us time. And we accept those tools because the leverage they create does not shortcurcuit the thing about the art that we are interested in.
Whether the tool is written by AI or not is irrelevant. The thing that matters is whether its leverage goes in a direction where the art becomes uninteresting.
For example use of Unity and Unreal Engine, which there is mixed opinions about. They can make the art uninteresting because "Well what did you really do?" If it's not clear that the author really did anything but just used builtin stuff in Unreal to create something pretty - well then the product will rightfully judged to be poor.
I agree that there is such a thing as being too lazy, and I think that is actually a large underlying part of the discussion. We're interested in human effort and the change that brings in humans. That's part of the art.
However... I don't really think your argument makes sense, because it can be applied just as well to Unreal Engine, Crinkler and any tools you use to paint. They are all just tools we use because they save us time. And we accept those tools because the leverage they create does not shortcurcuit the thing about the art that we are interested in.
Whether the tool is written by AI or not is irrelevant. The thing that matters is whether its leverage goes in a direction where the art becomes uninteresting.
For example use of Unity and Unreal Engine, which there is mixed opinions about. They can make the art uninteresting because "Well what did you really do?" If it's not clear that the author really did anything but just used builtin stuff in Unreal to create something pretty - well then the product will rightfully judged to be poor.
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if it's not clear that the author really did anything but just used builtin stuff in Unreal to create something pretty - well then the product will rightfully judged to be poor.
My take is if AI is used the outcome should be simply judged more harshly. Use AI, disclose, but know that this raises expectations. Exact same thing should apply for UE demos - if I ever see this default mannequin in a demo, instant down-vote.
However, it's just stupid if ppl down-vote just for the very fact AI or UE was involved.
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You do realize that if the internet says this is valuable art, then the LLM will claim the same? You do realize that the LLM image generator is trained on this? In other words, any "problem" you ascribe to "humans and art" transfers to (and even amplifies in) "AI and art".
Yes, I do realize that. And your point is? Does it mean I have to agree? No.
There has been a lot of romanticizing in this thread about the "sanctity" of human craft. My point is that the human baseline you are defending is already perfectly capable of producing, elevating, and buying into absolute nonsense. We all know AI is trained on human biases and flaws. If an LLM amplifies that, it is just a mirror reflecting the underlying human disease. If the human art establishment is full of pretension, the AI will be too. You're basically saying, "AI is trained to be just as absurd as the humans you're criticizing". I agree, but that doesn't excuse the humans who started the joke.
You're trying to use my critique of human art critics as a weapon against AI, but I'm just pointing out that the "human touch" isn't inherently immune to being complete bullshit.
Yeah, well, sorry, when you wrote “the problems with humans and art” I didn’t see the point in saying that if it doesn’t imply “as opposed to AI and art”. So I went that way.
Anyway, as you rightly said here, we should be really talking about “craft”. Art doesn’t necessarily include good craft. AI seeks to get rid of craft. But craft is almost all we have here in this subculture. We rarely dabble in art. In my book, both art and craft imply human experience. Experience of a real human individual, not the average of all human made art. Take that away and what you’re left with is neither craft nor art. But we’re going offtopic again.
Anyway, as you rightly said here, we should be really talking about “craft”. Art doesn’t necessarily include good craft. AI seeks to get rid of craft. But craft is almost all we have here in this subculture. We rarely dabble in art. In my book, both art and craft imply human experience. Experience of a real human individual, not the average of all human made art. Take that away and what you’re left with is neither craft nor art. But we’re going offtopic again.
Tooling. Is that something old people do nowadays? There are plenty of engines that allow excellents visuals and scripting. Get with it Granddad. Engines aren't going anywhere, so everyone should just accept Unity demos instead of burying your head in the sand making tools like some old person trying to prove themself.
;)
History of cheating:
1. The Demoscene came about from users running demos just to see them. The nice demos got spread and their authors and their group built a reputation.
2. Perhaps inevitably, competitions came about to "really prove who's the best", when instead it causes frustration among those who are not and can't be the best.
3. Thus, inevitably, there were cheaters. The evidence is overwhelming. A counter-movement started almost immediately and organizers and artists alike were greatly upset at cheating in art (copy, etc) and music (covers, long samples). Extremely few know performance limits of platforms, so cheating in code (copying code, presenting animation as effect, lines.bin, etc.) is still awaiting this counter-movement.
4. Organizers make the rules and are responsible for preselecting all violators of the rules (cheaters).
5. I suggest separate AI compos, but there will always be cheaters, as in this year's Revision. Another alternative is to have the same competitions, but to now allow generated content to compete with human creations.
6. Cheating was always available, and is available now. Just take another artist's work and say you did it. For a Fiverr you can with big prizes and a Meteoriks award, if you can find the actual talent (instead of you).
7. All cheaters know what they did.
Also, I mean nobody is forcing you to be a Demoscener. You could go into the commercial zektor. They don't care where their stuff comes from, or that they can't Copyright their products anymore if they use AI.
If you're a Demoscener or an artist though, I recommend to not kill all rights to your work by using AI and thereby losing your IP.
;)
History of cheating:
1. The Demoscene came about from users running demos just to see them. The nice demos got spread and their authors and their group built a reputation.
2. Perhaps inevitably, competitions came about to "really prove who's the best", when instead it causes frustration among those who are not and can't be the best.
3. Thus, inevitably, there were cheaters. The evidence is overwhelming. A counter-movement started almost immediately and organizers and artists alike were greatly upset at cheating in art (copy, etc) and music (covers, long samples). Extremely few know performance limits of platforms, so cheating in code (copying code, presenting animation as effect, lines.bin, etc.) is still awaiting this counter-movement.
4. Organizers make the rules and are responsible for preselecting all violators of the rules (cheaters).
5. I suggest separate AI compos, but there will always be cheaters, as in this year's Revision. Another alternative is to have the same competitions, but to now allow generated content to compete with human creations.
6. Cheating was always available, and is available now. Just take another artist's work and say you did it. For a Fiverr you can with big prizes and a Meteoriks award, if you can find the actual talent (instead of you).
7. All cheaters know what they did.
Also, I mean nobody is forcing you to be a Demoscener. You could go into the commercial zektor. They don't care where their stuff comes from, or that they can't Copyright their products anymore if they use AI.
If you're a Demoscener or an artist though, I recommend to not kill all rights to your work by using AI and thereby losing your IP.
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I suggest separate AI compos
And once you have one (which already happened) please no stupid backlash. Like last time there was surprised pickachu face that on AI-allowed compo there were full AI entries (Wild with AI on ASM Winter'06). Here is example of evilpaul in denial, and here is darya claiming an AI prod posted on AI-dedicated compo is cry for attention. No wonder others would rather hide the fact they have used any AI.
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there will always be cheaters, as in this year's Revision
Exactly. That's why I'm all for safe space here. And if compo allows AI it's not cheating BTW
BoyC entry was not violating any rules, so big kudos to him to disclose some help from AI to complete the prod on time. It's just sad in today's climate one have to rather conceal the fact to avoid "AI advertiser" label.
Personally I do not encourage anyone to (ab)use AI for coding and as I said multiple times, I prefer not to use it at all for my personal projects - simply because I like to code and want to stay sharp. But people will be using it no matter what, for both tooling and actual demo, and there is no way to verify. So the worst thing we can do is lie about it.
I suggest separate demoscene websites for AI discussions too
Lol fuck AI.
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If only there was some kind of "hide residue topics" option to tick in something like a "custöomizer" or similar, to make the problem go out of sight.I suggest separate demoscene websites for AI discussions too
no, residue topics aren't the problem