Are sceners becommming obsolete to the scene?
category: general [glöplog]
I am wondering, all demos today looks like they weren't made by people, but by nothing at all. To complete the series (coders? designers?) I am now asking the fundemental question: Are sceners becomming obsolete to the scene? and if they are, what is left?
WE ARE DEMOTOOLS
hallo! was?
We have lost the innovation in benefit of design (oh, thx oldskool amiga dudes, we have learned the lesson).
The design is a part of the art, but you'll need an IDEA before starting, and the design whould help that IDEA become beautiful, the fact is today all demos are perfectly designed on ideas we already seen before. Apply the next generation shader to the oldskool effect (tunnel, 3d showing...) and matize with a bit of design and will win, for example, "evoke05" (je je je)
I love the Plastic.pl pods, but they really are a master pice of shit (even the shit well done can attract), nothing new, only 3d scenes with new shader tech, and of course tons of design.
I don¡'t know if I explain myself clearly so I'll put an example: TEXT on screen (simple). A shit of demo will show a perfectly designed text, scrolling (oh my god). An innovative demo will show that text DOING SOMETHING NEW, as forming letters with an awesome new fluid simulation, or morphing in 3d with beast syncros.
SHIT DEMOS: Plastic, Farbraush (almost evrything in 3d)
OK DEMOS: Kewlers, MFX
We need the future of computing running on our demos, or will lost our identity.
Sorry for being that hard, and congratulations to Plastic and Farbraush for their excellent work, don't take my words serious, cos I'm music producer. ;-)
The design is a part of the art, but you'll need an IDEA before starting, and the design whould help that IDEA become beautiful, the fact is today all demos are perfectly designed on ideas we already seen before. Apply the next generation shader to the oldskool effect (tunnel, 3d showing...) and matize with a bit of design and will win, for example, "evoke05" (je je je)
I love the Plastic.pl pods, but they really are a master pice of shit (even the shit well done can attract), nothing new, only 3d scenes with new shader tech, and of course tons of design.
I don¡'t know if I explain myself clearly so I'll put an example: TEXT on screen (simple). A shit of demo will show a perfectly designed text, scrolling (oh my god). An innovative demo will show that text DOING SOMETHING NEW, as forming letters with an awesome new fluid simulation, or morphing in 3d with beast syncros.
SHIT DEMOS: Plastic, Farbraush (almost evrything in 3d)
OK DEMOS: Kewlers, MFX
We need the future of computing running on our demos, or will lost our identity.
Sorry for being that hard, and congratulations to Plastic and Farbraush for their excellent work, don't take my words serious, cos I'm music producer. ;-)
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and if they are, what is left?
GBA coders.
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We need the future of computing running on our demos, or will lost our identity.
no, we need more cheap available english lessons.
and how can kewlers make OK demos when they suck obviously ?
apart from that I ask for a new pouet-feature: categorize demos by SHIT and OK.
thanks.
mr neverheard "kOmpo" i now sincerely want to direct you to ye olde clueshoppe!
BASS!
I want water in my toilet!
I want water in my toilet!
we need ep in this thread, he'd know what to say. k0mpo just doesn't cut it, even if he tries had..
hey k0mpo! before you have to ask i'll present the details for you...
this store!
and take this bus to get there!
good luck! i think there is still hope for you!
this store!
and take this bus to get there!
good luck! i think there is still hope for you!
The problem with the scene today is that there is no problem. We are getting tons of awesome demos each party, and it's almost another golden age of demomaking, with some of the most remarkable and inspiring design having come out of the last 2 or so years.
Demos aren't just about making something on the screen run fast anymore. They've evolved! They can make you think and feel and ponder. Demos are stories and poetry, art and code fused into one medium that has absolutely no analogue anywhere else. To me, the newschool is filled with confidence about what a demo can be, and the enthusiasm to do something that takes art, in all its forms, and puts it to code.
I really do think in 10 years, you'll see alot of nostalgia for the prods of today; it'll be looked at as the demoscenes second golden age.
Demos aren't just about making something on the screen run fast anymore. They've evolved! They can make you think and feel and ponder. Demos are stories and poetry, art and code fused into one medium that has absolutely no analogue anywhere else. To me, the newschool is filled with confidence about what a demo can be, and the enthusiasm to do something that takes art, in all its forms, and puts it to code.
I really do think in 10 years, you'll see alot of nostalgia for the prods of today; it'll be looked at as the demoscenes second golden age.
the_nihilist: I don't think that so!
Today we have tons of shader effects and 3D.
The later is exactly which has stoped me using video-games.
The former is exactly which has stoped gfx and has made stuff ugly / blury and so cosmetik.
Of course newscomers find that interesting and I understand oldskoolers like Chaos find that good: there's surely something interesting to do with it when you're a coder.
However for me all that suxx a lot and worth nothing.
Some can say: "you've a FX5200 and that suxx!"
I had a Nvidia 9600 Pro for a 3 monthes time as before buying my video-card I asked Chaos what to buy.
This was funny because demos runs well even in 4x antialias and with all the options to the max, but the problem was that new demos don't please me: they lack human skills, feelings and talent.
Too much cosmetic stuff really suxx: I hate girls with too much make-up.
A real bombshell is a girl which is able with nothing to make her really beautiful and that's the same with demo.
Transition to the max and good effects + texts.
The art of the essential: that's what we lack today.
Today we have tons of shader effects and 3D.
The later is exactly which has stoped me using video-games.
The former is exactly which has stoped gfx and has made stuff ugly / blury and so cosmetik.
Of course newscomers find that interesting and I understand oldskoolers like Chaos find that good: there's surely something interesting to do with it when you're a coder.
However for me all that suxx a lot and worth nothing.
Some can say: "you've a FX5200 and that suxx!"
I had a Nvidia 9600 Pro for a 3 monthes time as before buying my video-card I asked Chaos what to buy.
This was funny because demos runs well even in 4x antialias and with all the options to the max, but the problem was that new demos don't please me: they lack human skills, feelings and talent.
Too much cosmetic stuff really suxx: I hate girls with too much make-up.
A real bombshell is a girl which is able with nothing to make her really beautiful and that's the same with demo.
Transition to the max and good effects + texts.
The art of the essential: that's what we lack today.
The problem with the scene today is that there is no problem. We are getting tons of awesome demos each party, and it's almost another golden age of demomaking, with some of the most remarkable and inspiring design having come out of the last 2 or so years.
_WORD UP_
_WORD UP_
what the_nihilist said i agree.
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The problem with the scene today is that there is no problem. We are getting tons of awesome demos each party, and it's almost another golden age of demomaking, with some of the most remarkable and inspiring design having come out of the last 2 or so years.
Truth be told... Aye, aye.
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Demos aren't just about making something on the screen run fast anymore. They've evolved! They can make you think and feel and ponder. Demos are stories and poetry, art and code fused into one medium that has absolutely no analogue anywhere else. To me, the newschool is filled with confidence about what a demo can be, and the enthusiasm to do something that takes art, in all its forms, and puts it to code.
I'm a bit saddened that after those enlightened words in the first alinea, you so quickly wander off into the land of your personal opinion. There is no such thing as an absolute truth as to what the demoscene should be about... It's a dynamic environment, a chameleon in front of a TBL PC prod, the scene is about everything the sceners want it to be. Both oldskool and newskool mindsets are very much alive, and it is good that way.
The best comparison I can make is with sports: You're like a figureskating fan who claims that "...throwing things far or running hard doesn't matter anymore in today's sports!". Maybe for you it doesn't, but for the few remaining athletics fans it sure as hell does... Not to mention the fact that there is an athletic component to even the most artistic forms of sport, like your beloved figureskating. "Don't forget your roots!" ;)
@kompo
this fear of losing the past is rather strange.. it is not dangerous to you if stuff changes. You may actually do what the hell you like to do with a demo. Theres nothing stopping you from doing oldschool style, 96 style, norwegian pc demo style, art or inventing new effects style (like maybe We Cell did, or Viagra. Wtf is that alien face? parallax mapping or what? If it is parallax, then they made it several years ahead of say the unreal 3 guys )..
There are a bunch of new effects nowadays although most people don't see them because theyre embedded in 3d scenes. What are you waiting for in order to notice a new effect? Should it be 4D? Final audition has stuff like HDR rendering, projected textures (I think) and lots of other stuff. Theyre just not writing the effectname all over the screen. Maybe catching up with what the new effects are would help getting some more enjoyment from watching demos again.
Oldschool effects with their names are mostly just special cases of general concepts such as affine transformations given names because there was some extra work to making it work on a given platform that you could not achieve by implementing it in the general fashion... Rotozoomer for example.
Yo!
this fear of losing the past is rather strange.. it is not dangerous to you if stuff changes. You may actually do what the hell you like to do with a demo. Theres nothing stopping you from doing oldschool style, 96 style, norwegian pc demo style, art or inventing new effects style (like maybe We Cell did, or Viagra. Wtf is that alien face? parallax mapping or what? If it is parallax, then they made it several years ahead of say the unreal 3 guys )..
There are a bunch of new effects nowadays although most people don't see them because theyre embedded in 3d scenes. What are you waiting for in order to notice a new effect? Should it be 4D? Final audition has stuff like HDR rendering, projected textures (I think) and lots of other stuff. Theyre just not writing the effectname all over the screen. Maybe catching up with what the new effects are would help getting some more enjoyment from watching demos again.
Oldschool effects with their names are mostly just special cases of general concepts such as affine transformations given names because there was some extra work to making it work on a given platform that you could not achieve by implementing it in the general fashion... Rotozoomer for example.
Yo!
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It's a dynamic environment, a chameleon in front of a TBL PC prod, the scene is about everything the sceners want it to be.
oh god havoc, marry me and bare my children!!!!!!
i want to be a naked chick fighting dragons!
Oh c'mon, another discussion about oldskool vs. newskool?, no please noooOO!, (anyway oldskool rulez! XDDDD)
WE ALL LIVE IN THE XBOX SCENE! XBOX SCENE! THE XBOX SCENE!
I dig the clue shop :)
FEEL THE OBSOLESCENCE!!!1
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Demos aren't just about making something on the screen run fast anymore. They've evolved! They can make you think and feel and ponder.
That is incidental. Read on:
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Demos are stories and poetry, art and code fused into one medium that has absolutely no analogue anywhere else. To me, the newschool is filled with confidence about what a demo can be, and the enthusiasm to do something that takes art, in all its forms, and puts it to code.
Like many newschoolers, you're missing the point of demos. Demos are not about putting art in all its forms into code: Demos *themselves* are the art. The fusion of ideas, whether conceptual (design), artistic (graphics), or clever (code) -- coupled with the circumstances that brought them all together -- is the artform. Demos are an expression about their very existance, not traditional artforms translated to a computer medium.
I am bored by most demos today. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. I'd say less than five demos per YEAR understand their raison d'etre. (There is an upside to that, though; because I don't watch very many demos, I generate a crapload of ideas in my head that, due to lack of exposure, can't possibly be copying something else :-)
I'm not saying that modern demos suck; I'm saying that the people who make them mostly don't "get it" and that's why most modern productions don't do much to differentiate themselves from modern animation. In 1997 I saw a series of flashy futuristic atheltic shoe commercials with lots of blinkenlights and morphing and stuff; I had them on my website for a time, proclaiming that, if we weren't careful, this is what demos would become. Indistinguishable from advertising. Well, guess what?
oldskoolers don't remember fondly old demos because they displayed a 3D cube on a 1MHz machine (although we do respect the coding skills), but rather because of what that cube represented: How it got there, why the effort was made. Jason Scott once told me over the phone why he admires ASCII art -- because it's representative of how art itself will break through the mediums it is given, regardless of whether or not they lend themselves to art.
If you could travel back in time to the first presentation of the Altair at the Homebrew Computer Club in the 1970s, and get up in front of everyone and say that the Altair represents a new emerging form of art -- art that will break through the medium it is given -- you'd get blank stares. And then, four months later, a 14-yr-old kid would get up in front of everyone with his Altair and an AM radio, tune the radio to an unused frequency, spend 10 minutes toggling in a program, and then run the program and you would hear MUSIC (a real melody, not just noise) coming through the AM radio, generated by variously-cycled loops. A practicall use of the first modular home computer? Of course not. But it is art. There was more "demo" on that day than in most modern productions.
Please think about this, and try to understand.
the times they are a-changing